tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3653345901774701895.post8871505047037918933..comments2024-03-23T12:02:36.626-07:00Comments on Mark P. Witton's Blog: Deconstructing All Yesterdays, or How palaeoart is flawed, but everything's coolMark Wittonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02524696111911168322noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3653345901774701895.post-45707451414546199492021-02-18T11:58:14.815-08:002021-02-18T11:58:14.815-08:00I think Gregory S. Paul's art is great if some...I think Gregory S. Paul's art is great if somewhat dated. I think people forget that he did what most artists before the Dino Renaissance didn't do: he started with the skeleton of whatever Dinosaur he was portraying. This did not become in vogue until he, Bakker, Hallett and company started out focusing on how the skeleton's would interact with the flesh and blood of the Dinosaurs as animals, not just fantastical beast with whatever the whims of the artist making the art wanted from them. Usually that ended up with the Godzilla phenomenon.<br /><br /><br />Paleofan 150millhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06455341408391374049noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3653345901774701895.post-19679459485082937822013-08-09T17:00:46.050-07:002013-08-09T17:00:46.050-07:00Predatory dinosaurs of the World
On lean dinosaur...Predatory dinosaurs of the World <br />On lean dinosaurs 105, 235<br />On integument and feathers 122-127, insulation 161<br />I think there's more but that's what I found.<br /><br />Vlad FischertAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3653345901774701895.post-64652114858654167312013-08-09T16:49:08.546-07:002013-08-09T16:49:08.546-07:00Ok. Isn't much of the reconstructions and infe...Ok. Isn't much of the reconstructions and inferences about dinosaur lifestyle based on imagination too in All yesterdays? Paul himself noted that his reconstructions aren't as precise as people might think. In other part he complained about people just copying his style and encouraged them to make new studies and reconstructions. <br />After all, could paleontology be able to be accurate in reconstructing the appearance and specially the unusual lifestyle of a polar bear if it was a fossil species?<br />I think his (Heinrich) main concern is about the biomechanics involved, but even in extant species there's much to learn.<br />Hey Mark, I'm a fan of yours and pterosaurs, I've been following your work for some years now. I'm still waiting for my cousin to bring me my copy of your book from the US (I'm from Mexico, and I can't rely on the post office, they basically steal and lose packages on a regular basis), I'm eager to read it. Regards, Vlad Fischert.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3653345901774701895.post-61827355790848724012013-08-09T00:54:07.014-07:002013-08-09T00:54:07.014-07:00I must admit to looking for these statements of dr...I must admit to looking for these statements of drawing lean animals with only bare minimal feathering, but I couldn't find it in the text. Does anyone have a page number for this?Mark Wittonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02524696111911168322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3653345901774701895.post-4816814693877012602013-08-09T00:51:01.581-07:002013-08-09T00:51:01.581-07:00I don't think anyone is denouncing Paul's ...I don't think anyone is denouncing Paul's contribution to the Dinosaur Renaissance. What Heinrich is referring to is that many aspects of his reconstructions and inferences about dinosaur lifestyle are based on hunches and gut feeling, and not rigorous scientific work. The best discussion of this concerns Heinrich's work on <i>Plateosaurus</i>. References to this and some discussion can be found <a href="http://markwitton-com.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/another-new-plateosaurus.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>. Alternatively, Heinrich's most relevant paper on this topic is <a href="http://www.app.pan.pl/article/item/app20090075.html" rel="nofollow">Open Access</a>.Mark Wittonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02524696111911168322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3653345901774701895.post-6758942092901254092013-08-09T00:31:30.491-07:002013-08-09T00:31:30.491-07:00Oh and I forgot, he even refuses to make reconstru...Oh and I forgot, he even refuses to make reconstructions of species known just for fragments for the sake of accuracy, so that don't seems to me like unscientific. Maybe the guy can be a little outdated by now for not adding totally especulative skins and details, but calling him full of BS is way too much.<br /><br />Vlad fischertAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3653345901774701895.post-74674069753546559762013-08-09T00:20:56.910-07:002013-08-09T00:20:56.910-07:00Yes, Paul also explained in the book that he delib...Yes, Paul also explained in the book that he deliberately draws his dinosaurs in a lean state for the same reason, and I don't see what the problem with that really is, his ceratopsians for example doesn't look more "anorexic" than modern african species of rhinos.<br />By the way, I really dig All yesterdays.<br /> <br />Vlad FischertAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3653345901774701895.post-35722293527444232202013-08-09T00:08:41.845-07:002013-08-09T00:08:41.845-07:00Wow. that sounds like a lot of hate for somebody w...Wow. that sounds like a lot of hate for somebody who did so much for paleoart and changing the popular notion of dinosaurs as lumbering overgrown iguanas. Besides, a work like All yesterdays wouldn't even exist is wasn't for people like Paul and Bakker that paved the way for it. <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3653345901774701895.post-70459758481727644772012-12-13T01:39:38.114-08:002012-12-13T01:39:38.114-08:00just to make sure all are up to speed on some of t...just to make sure all are up to speed on some of the Paul-issues:<br />http://www.app.pan.pl/article/item/app20090075.htmlHeinrich Mallisonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14195098490352297671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3653345901774701895.post-27093575707167773172012-12-13T01:34:21.763-08:002012-12-13T01:34:21.763-08:00one really good thing about WP is that you can set...one really good thing about WP is that you can set first-timer comments to always require your approval, but all further comments from the same log-in are auto-cleared. Saves all the hassle with the captcha!Heinrich Mallisonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14195098490352297671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3653345901774701895.post-72896882040356351642012-12-11T15:07:26.963-08:002012-12-11T15:07:26.963-08:00As a great admirer of Paul's work I too agree ...As a great admirer of Paul's work I too agree it's dated in today's days, and hopefully artists and paleontologists will embrace it in the near future.<br /><br />And I couldn't help myself in thinking while looking side by side those Therizinosaurus reconstructions posted above that a 'The Future is Wild' like documentary about dinosaurs would help this new view to be embraced by the public.<br /><br />On the Blogger vs. Wordpress as a commentator I never had problems with Blogger but I can't say the same about Wordpress - they're constantly changing the users' interface and about one or two times I had problems commenting. But I'm a dupe regarding computing stuff.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3653345901774701895.post-37235793521151179252012-12-11T14:54:24.823-08:002012-12-11T14:54:24.823-08:00**On a related note, I looked at Paul's work a...**On a related note, I looked at Paul's work a fair bit in writing this post, and must confess to seeing it as rather dated now, and especially in light of All Yesterdays and recent illustrations of feathered dinosaurs. It's all very 1980s/1990s.**<br /><br />This is something that I noticed as well. After digging through an old copy of Paul's Predatory Dinosaurs, I couldn't get over the swan-like curvature he'd allocated to his theropod's necks. How could I have missed it before? It was startling to suddenly realize how much progress has unfolded in paleoart.<br /><br />I can understand why the guy would want to show off his skeletal work. The time and effort he put into his reconstructions really did pave the way for years to come, and I can still remember a time when Paul-ian feathered dinosaurs were the future.<br /><br />Perhaps it's similar to artists who reconstruct ancient homminids: Kennis and Kennis have produced some amazing busts. One of their Neanderthals is presented with hair shaved from forehead to chin. It's a striking piece which also illustrates the apparent need to highlight disparate traits in extinct animals.<br /><br />It highlights a tendency; a factor that played into the success of RAA?Kacy Nielsenhttp://outwardbounder.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3653345901774701895.post-24773525283001331362012-12-11T11:09:20.722-08:002012-12-11T11:09:20.722-08:00Yes. A great example of the lack of objectivity in...Yes. A great example of the lack of objectivity in skeletal reconstructions is skull anatomy. Despite being based on the same specimens, the skulls of two skeletals are rarely exactly alike. <br /><br />On Doug: I wish his work was more visible nowadays, as I think there's a lot to be learnt from it. His depictions of the Mesozoic are some of the most evocative and believable, but it' seems hard to find the majority of it nowadays unless you're willing to fork out for lots of out-of-print books.Mark Wittonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02524696111911168322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3653345901774701895.post-38511417960451909172012-12-11T10:42:23.634-08:002012-12-11T10:42:23.634-08:00Thanks for the thoughts on this, chaps. I have alw...Thanks for the thoughts on this, chaps. I have always found Blogger easy to work with (Pterosaur.Net is Blogger), and I figured it made sense to use the same dashboard for both the blogs I contribute too. So far as I'm aware, the comment problem Mike mentioned has never happened at P.Net (no-one has complained about it, anyway). Nevertheless, I'll look into migrating to Wordpress before I'm too much older and, if it's relatively quick and painless, will take the plunge.Mark Wittonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02524696111911168322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3653345901774701895.post-5955683326774071882012-12-11T10:37:42.140-08:002012-12-11T10:37:42.140-08:00Me too. I reckon there could be a lot learnt from ...Me too. I reckon there could be a lot learnt from discussions on the All Yesterdays approach, and probably lots of ideas for research projects, too.Mark Wittonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02524696111911168322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3653345901774701895.post-81071079328969423792012-12-11T10:32:06.051-08:002012-12-11T10:32:06.051-08:00Heinrich: One issue I have with RAA is the lack of...Heinrich: One issue I have with RAA is the lack of literature on a lot of osteological correlates and inferred functionality. There are a number of skeletal structures that are meant to reflect a behaviour or soft-tissue, but there is often less meat to these hypotheses than we might like. The lack of good form-function analyses in modern animals is a real issue in palaeontology and palaeoart.<br /><br />On "proof of existence" vs. "proof of inexistence": Yes, that old chestnut. I guess the only way for palaeoartists to work within this sea of unknowns is to think more about what is possible and plausible, and not what is necessarily the single "right" interpretation. <br /><br />Marc: I must have missed that bit, thanks for the clarification. I'm not quite sure what the point of that approach is, though. If Paul was worried about the plumage obscuring the visible muscle contours on the naked skin, he may have been better just sticking to myological reconstructions, or doing them as well as the fully feathered ones. Perhaps they're viewed better as schematic feather maps for non-avian theropods, then, and not as reconstructions. Mark Wittonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02524696111911168322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3653345901774701895.post-32663831170376166532012-12-11T08:59:33.666-08:002012-12-11T08:59:33.666-08:00I think Paul does explain in the Field Guide that ...I think Paul does explain in the Field Guide that the plumage on his feathered dinosaurs in that particular book is deliberately kept sparse to show the body outline as much as possible.Marc Vincenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01894846069567096349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3653345901774701895.post-15793980845440237232012-12-10T14:13:17.339-08:002012-12-10T14:13:17.339-08:00Fourthed!
Blogger doesn't even allow <bloc...Fourthed!<br /><br />Blogger doesn't even allow <blockquote>!David Marjanovićnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3653345901774701895.post-34387689113999713612012-12-10T14:11:56.536-08:002012-12-10T14:11:56.536-08:00It's ironic that one of the first individuals ...<i>It's ironic that one of the first individuals to depict and argue for feathers on dinosaurs uses them so sparingly, despite evidence for very extensive feathery integuments in so many species now.</i><br /><br />I guess that, because he was one of the first to put any feathers at all on nonavian dinosaurs, he used them sparingly to avoid of being accused of going too far beyond the evidence. Same perhaps for Bakker and his famous "<i>Syntarsus</i>".David Marjanovićnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3653345901774701895.post-26465426833078871092012-12-10T04:58:59.357-08:002012-12-10T04:58:59.357-08:00As far as I am concerned, the biggest problem in t...As far as I am concerned, the biggest problem in the term RAA is the suggestion (sometimes even overtly expressed) that 'rigor' equates to 'objectivity'. But even the 'skeletals'of Paul and his followers are heavily loaded with suggestion regarding soft tissue anatomy and (perhaps even more problematically) behavior. Personally, I think that a more *overtly* subjective type of reconstruction does far more justice to inherent uncertainties.<br /><br />Finally, allow me to say that we all owe a lot to Doug Henderson.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3653345901774701895.post-48965412030808580222012-12-10T04:40:43.805-08:002012-12-10T04:40:43.805-08:00I third this. I find working with Wordpress (for t...I third this. I find working with Wordpress (for the Dino Toy Blog) much easier than working with Blogger (for Chasmosaurs).<br /><br />Fantastic review by the way...I might add one to the pile, but I think David (Orr)'s got one in the works.Marc Vincenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01894846069567096349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3653345901774701895.post-45399244537704486842012-12-10T02:21:51.153-08:002012-12-10T02:21:51.153-08:00I 2nd this!I 2nd this!Heinrich Mallisonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14195098490352297671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3653345901774701895.post-8225138212332793542012-12-10T01:41:18.969-08:002012-12-10T01:41:18.969-08:00In other news ... why the heck have you started a ...In other news ... why the heck have you started a new blog on Blogger instead of WordPress? It's a nightmare, constantly losing comments and so throwing up a barrier to actual discussion.<br /><br />I think this blog is new enough that you could pretty painlessly move to WordPress. I highly recommend it. (Much better spam-handling, too.)Mike Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06039663158335543317noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3653345901774701895.post-7095608091545795522012-12-10T01:40:12.579-08:002012-12-10T01:40:12.579-08:00I am (pleasantly) suprised not to have seen a sing...I am (pleasantly) suprised not to have seen a single negative review of <i>All Yesterdays</i> yet. As I made pretty clear on SV-POW!, I think it's not only brilliant but also important, both artistically and scientifically. But I was expecting to see some kickback from traditionalists. That I haven't suggests that John's done a good job evangelising his vision -- probably those two SVPCA talks have helped.<br /><br /><i>Looking at the celebratory response to the All Yesterdays project across the internet, I wonder if the Age of Gregory S. Paul is about to end, and palaeoart will enter the 'Dynasty of All Yesterdays'?"</i><br /><br />Exactly.<br /><br />I wonder if Greg will modify his own work in response, or kick back against it, or just stay silent.Mike Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06039663158335543317noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3653345901774701895.post-43814654391489157712012-12-09T09:25:45.874-08:002012-12-09T09:25:45.874-08:00I should have been more exact: it is not that RAA ...I should have been more exact: it is not that RAA is not an excellent approach. The problem is that if you want to "do" more than a handful of animals you simply can't keep abreast of the literature, and especially not of the literature on extant animals you need to read to do RAA properly. That's one of the reason Paul's dinosaurs are anorexic: he messed up the bones and muscles, and if you have an animal that's got muscles as if it was from the Sahel zone you'd need to put a lot of skin and fat on it to even get to "normal" - and the Paul pics tell!<br /><br />All Yesterdays isn't about this stage at all, but addresses the next step, once RAA is done - and here we hit the issue of "proof of existence" vs. "proof of inexistence": in mammals, if you can't prove it wasn#t there you simply C&P from extant animals. In dinosaurs, if you can't prove it was there you must not draw it. Stupid, as it uses two different yardsticks for one task. Which is why I can't wait for my copy to arrive :)Heinrich Mallisonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14195098490352297671noreply@blogger.com