tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3653345901774701895.post7688553319207876651..comments2024-03-23T12:02:36.626-07:00Comments on Mark P. Witton's Blog: Dinosaur fossils and Chinese dragons: ancient association or modern wishful thinking?Mark Wittonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02524696111911168322noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3653345901774701895.post-67345905099942542912021-11-24T23:02:19.190-08:002021-11-24T23:02:19.190-08:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.babyjoyshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06618797723482910847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3653345901774701895.post-63148901103514723802021-11-10T02:28:25.128-08:002021-11-10T02:28:25.128-08:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Customer Support Helphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14288900734864540146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3653345901774701895.post-22940778328530449332021-05-28T09:18:08.289-07:002021-05-28T09:18:08.289-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.VICTORYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13157722190316598415noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3653345901774701895.post-70890347140595620782021-05-28T09:05:46.740-07:002021-05-28T09:05:46.740-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.VICTORYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13157722190316598415noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3653345901774701895.post-41756962332796535312021-05-26T20:07:33.074-07:002021-05-26T20:07:33.074-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.VICTORYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13157722190316598415noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3653345901774701895.post-68893176794836563632021-05-18T07:07:03.923-07:002021-05-18T07:07:03.923-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03026051233857247113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3653345901774701895.post-15157747002024759742021-05-18T06:47:51.506-07:002021-05-18T06:47:51.506-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03026051233857247113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3653345901774701895.post-14261673406092927442021-05-10T17:37:58.337-07:002021-05-10T17:37:58.337-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.eric1111https://www.blogger.com/profile/14168806541307133380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3653345901774701895.post-79151759216622465052021-04-23T12:47:09.706-07:002021-04-23T12:47:09.706-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17827367527618380487noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3653345901774701895.post-3025410676581977932021-04-07T15:43:16.627-07:002021-04-07T15:43:16.627-07:00I heard the reason they were portrayed flying was ...I heard the reason they were portrayed flying was because the sky was seen as an ocean back in those days.Pelagornishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08702848896692862732noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3653345901774701895.post-64267327347190175902021-04-07T14:55:21.520-07:002021-04-07T14:55:21.520-07:00"Weren't Chinese dragons primarily aquati..."Weren't Chinese dragons primarily aquatic as opposed to flying?"<br /><br />Both, actually. They are primarily associated with water (rivers, seas, ect) and never depicted with wings, but they were believed to be able to fly. In Chinese mythology, immortal/celestial beings are generally all able to fly (like if a mortal person were to drink a magic potion of immortality they would also be able to fly) or at least levitate in some capacity, and the same was extended to dragons.<br /><br />And yeah, Chinese dragons in mythology are at least 3.5-4kyo, so in that sense none of the "Dragon Bone medicine" discussed in this article is even at all relevant to the beginnings of these myths.Camel Khanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03355527465536837693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3653345901774701895.post-61018455537262391952021-04-02T11:05:08.719-07:002021-04-02T11:05:08.719-07:00Good point.Good point.Noasaurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04311084551979795446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3653345901774701895.post-74635809675033295162021-04-01T20:48:46.299-07:002021-04-01T20:48:46.299-07:00It would have required a lot of low-probability ev...It would have required a lot of low-probability events. And there is still zero evidence that any human was familiar with Protoceratops before the 20th century.vdinetshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17859400777586965277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3653345901774701895.post-86058277386782182742021-04-01T20:42:53.607-07:002021-04-01T20:42:53.607-07:00Would it be possible that the protoceratops could ...Would it be possible that the protoceratops could have added credibility to the myth?Noasaurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04311084551979795446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3653345901774701895.post-8745053046198517592021-03-27T08:29:24.343-07:002021-03-27T08:29:24.343-07:00That is certainly Lyons' Species, Serpents, Sp...That is certainly Lyons' Species, Serpents, Spirits, and Skulls: Science at the Margins in the Victorian Age (State University of New York Press, 2010) an excellent book.Justin M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/09176620733446662066noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3653345901774701895.post-62022443064355351172021-03-26T19:15:01.201-07:002021-03-26T19:15:01.201-07:00In the mid-20th century, dinosaur bones were routi...In the mid-20th century, dinosaur bones were routinely considered to be dragon bones in Mongolia. Ivan Efremov's official position in the first Russian-Mongolian expedition was something like "the director general of dragon bones". It's all described in much detail in one of his book, The Road of Winds if I remember correctly.<br />On a separate note, a friends of mine who is an expert in Ancient Greek art once explained to me why "griffons are Protoceratops" theory is total BS. Griffon motif appeared in Mediterranean art long before any possibility of contact with eastern Central Asia.vdinetshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17859400777586965277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3653345901774701895.post-36535893242295427042021-03-26T17:04:00.925-07:002021-03-26T17:04:00.925-07:00I've been reading a bit about the origins of d...I've been reading a bit about the origins of dragons in the past few days, and as well as Greek and Roman stories of giant snakes (crocodiles are probably somewhere in the mix too) there seems a good case to be made that whales were highly influential on European dragons via the Leviathan. It's described in the Bible as a sea monster with fiery breath, which sounds a lot like a description of a whale spouting and looking like steam. As it was in the Bible it would have been familiar and believed in across Christian Europe:<br /><br />"Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and sparks of fire leap out.<br />Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron.<br />His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth."RHinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11273124833414413570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3653345901774701895.post-71293611723305033932021-03-26T16:17:28.938-07:002021-03-26T16:17:28.938-07:00Weren't Chinese dragons primarily aquatic as o...Weren't Chinese dragons primarily aquatic as opposed to flying? Making them more of a sea serpent type fish-scaly monster? They were also 'chimeras' with parts of different types of animals, antlers or horns, claws, fur, feathers, etc. which makes sense if they were interpreting multiple types of mammal fossils along with random fossilized shark teeth, scales, osteoderms, etc.<br /><br />I think one mistake made in the modern take is that it's assumed the fossils came before the myth. That someone found a fossil and created an elaborate mythology to explain it. The myth likely originated long before the fossils but the fossils added credibility and embellishments. This is why the Protoceratops story seemed (very) far-fetched to me.<br /><br />The Shaligrams sacred in Vaishnavism are worth mentioning. It's a modern example of a fossil incorporated into an established religion. I'm not sure if they were recognized as preserved life forms. Or simply as rocks that are examples of symmetry and perfection in nature and thus worthy of being considered holy.kmichaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05430854438111260663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3653345901774701895.post-79467756201816481282021-03-26T16:16:13.228-07:002021-03-26T16:16:13.228-07:00The one reference I most wanted to check out isn&#...The one reference I most wanted to check out isn't currently listed, Lyons 2009.RHinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11273124833414413570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3653345901774701895.post-66795016959057537022021-03-26T13:10:27.972-07:002021-03-26T13:10:27.972-07:00I'd say exaggerated depictions of varanids, an...I'd say exaggerated depictions of varanids, and through a game of broken telephone, the tongue-lashing lizard became a fiery drake of destruction.Noasaurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04311084551979795446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3653345901774701895.post-16040394983076163822021-03-26T11:22:42.128-07:002021-03-26T11:22:42.128-07:00What about European dragons, like in the legend of...What about European dragons, like in the legend of St. George?Paytonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07109762567415223761noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3653345901774701895.post-781407061408403542021-03-26T11:22:37.426-07:002021-03-26T11:22:37.426-07:00What about European dragons, like in the legend of...What about European dragons, like in the legend of St. George?Paytonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07109762567415223761noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3653345901774701895.post-1046900322888975142021-03-26T11:18:09.877-07:002021-03-26T11:18:09.877-07:00Pretty sure they started out as exaggerated descri...Pretty sure they started out as exaggerated descriptions of snakes. (For instance, the fire breath probably came from the venom, which was said to hurt like fire.) Pelagornishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08702848896692862732noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3653345901774701895.post-882384488576035652021-03-26T11:13:56.334-07:002021-03-26T11:13:56.334-07:00What about European dragons, like the one from the...What about European dragons, like the one from the legend of St. George?Paytonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07109762567415223761noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3653345901774701895.post-42781505792871500702021-03-26T11:04:33.821-07:002021-03-26T11:04:33.821-07:00Fascinating! It's extraordinary to me that hor...Fascinating! It's extraordinary to me that horses are among the fossil species in question; surely (one imagines) the ancient Chinese were familiar enough with horses to recognize the bones of one.Granthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12583224487723669907noreply@blogger.com